Curse

Echowinds · Mar 05, 2006, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jenosavel

+10% armor penetration against a 60AL target will increase your bow damage (assuming 12 Marks) by a whopping 1.6 to 3.1 damage per attack. Against a 100AL target you'll get 1.4 to 2.6 extra damage per attack. Assuming 16 Marks against a 60AL target you'll get an extra 2.3 to 4.3 damage, and against a 100AL target you'll get 2.0 to 3.7 extra damage.

So at best, we can expect a Sundering mod to give us a +4.3 attack 10% of the time. Under more normal circumstance, we can be expecting somewhere around a +2 damage 10% of the time. Now compare that to a Vampiric mod which gives a +5 damage per attack 100% of the time, and there is absolutely no question as to which mod is better for dealing damage.

^^^ Win.

Quaker · Mar 05, 2006, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Well, first of all, I'm talking about actual observed results, not theoretical results based upon idealized and possibly incorrect formulas.

For example, you're calculations for the health boost is based upon a 2 second refire rate, but doesn't allow for missed shots and/or the time between switching targets. As I more or less said in my first post, I haven't actually observed any overall health benefits from using a Vampiric bow. At best, the health gain just balances the loss and the net effect is zero - which is what you'd get with any bow.

As far as the relative damage goes, I can't comment on the validity of your calculations, but I can say - again, as I basically already said - that I haven't observed any great difference in the total damage done to a target over time between a 5/-1 Vamp and a 10/10 Sunder.

Therefore, since I can't see any real advantage to using a Vamp bow, I'd say why bother.

btw, until this latest update, I was unable to see the Vamp damage as a separate number. Now I do see the +5's when they come up. But I also see extra +'s coming off my sundering bow now too. these are always a lot higher than +4 but not every shot (but more often then 1 in 10)

Jenosavel · Mar 06, 2006, 12:51 AM // 00:51

Yes, my calculations of the health gain don't take into account missed attacks, Faintheartedness type hexes, etc. However, the health gain aspect of the Vampiric mod is somewhat irrelevant. It's the damage that makes them worthwhile, and all I sought to point out with the health calculations is that if you're using your Vamp bow wisely, you've got nothing at all to fear from its one pip of degen.

Quote:

As far as the relative damage goes, I can't comment on the validity of your calculations, but I can say - again, as I basically already said - that I haven't observed any great difference in the total damage done to a target over time between a 5/-1 Vamp and a 10/10 Sunder.

The problem with observations is that they're not precise in the least. To observe a difference, there usually has to be quite a large difference. It's just the way human perception works. When the difference is small, therefore, you need to rely on more concrete analysis. In the case of +damage per arrow, the differences are always going to be small. However, over time the small difference in damage adds up, and thus it's worthwhile to do some number crunching and see just how the two really compare. This is especially true since the bonus damage from sundering doesn't just jump out at you as most bonus damage does. Unless you do the calculations, you're left wondering how much of that last hit was actually benefited by armor penetration.

You can verify my numbers yourself, if you don't believe them. Using Ensign's wonderful guide to game mechanics, all I did was calculate how much damage a bow attack of base 15 damage and base 28 damage do against an AL60 and an AL 100 target. Then redo the calculation with +10% armor penetration added into the mix. Subtract to find the difference, and you'll have my numbers.

Quote:

But I also see extra +'s coming off my sundering bow now too. these are always a lot higher than +4 but not every shot (but more often then 1 in 10)

Um, what? The extra damage from sundering never shows up as a +damage number. Go out alone (no pet or party) into the Isle of the Nameless with a sundering bow (yes I do have a few, even if I don't particularly like them) and attack one of the targets. Don't use any preps, enchantments, or anything else that might give a +damage number. It doesn't take too long to realize that sundering damage doesn't show up as an additional value on your screen. If you'd like to argue that it does show up as a separate number, you're going to have to explain to me why my 10/10 sundering mod didn't influence a single attack out of the 200 I sat and watched just now (0 marks vs the 100AL dummy). And yes, I used attack skills just in case sundering only works when using a skill similar to warrior strength (no clue if it does or not, though I'd hope not 'cause that would be another mark against it).

Also, if the additional damage from sundering showed up as a separate number, then it would stand to reason that the additional damage from Penetrating Attack, which is also armor penetrating, would show up as a separate number as well. Of course, it doesn't.

Tyrent Frath · Mar 06, 2006, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valerius

well if ur a noob... then u should i guess... but most exp. players take the 5:1 Vamp as it has the most uses

or perhaps an elemental string?

spinal shivers comes to mind...

Inureface · Mar 06, 2006, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Vamp strings are usually more trouble than they're worth unless they're on a shortbow, same with zealous strings.

Zerg · Mar 06, 2006, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Yeah I got in the habit of switching out my victo's but it was just more trouble and I was farming FoW with victo's so +5 degen agianst spiders = really slow going, I use an axe build now so im happy

Kurow · Mar 06, 2006, 06:47 AM // 06:47

I think the real problem that people come accross is just switching out their vamp weapons. Once you get that down, its not tough at all. And really, 10% of 10% is 1% correct? So on average, your hits have 1% damage piercing with a perfect sundering mod right? I guess its assumed you wont be fighting anything with enough armor for that to be comperable to 5 damage per hit. People tend to have disillusions about the effectiveness of strength and armor penetration.

VGJustice · Mar 06, 2006, 08:01 AM // 08:01

Kurow, the 10/10 mod is more like "1/10 chance of 10% armor penetrate". Or, once out of every ten shots without randoms. But, with randoms, it's a 1-in-10 chance on every hit. If you're lucky, you get bonus damage almost every time. If you're unlucky, you NEVER get the bonus damage, making the mod a waste of space and money. Much better to stick with a sure thing than a relative percentage. If you want armor penetration, put a 5/1 vamp string of a Horn Bow and take along Barrage. That'll pump out some damage.

Antipode · Mar 15, 2006, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Honestly, I don't see why people don't like vampiric. I use a 5/1 string in ToPK and I hardly ever switch it off (usually only if someone goes AFK) because it's quite simple to just hit troll unguent. Even going against one mob with a bow that has a 2 second refire rate, that's -4 health for those two seconds of one pip degen. The vamp steals five, and that's just against one target. Say barrage hits with all six arrows. That's +30 health every barrage. That's also +30 damage dealt unconditionally, no random percentages.

Even zealous with a two second refire is better than having that extra pip of regen... provided you're attacking, of course. Barrage costs five energy, three with my current expertise. Even if I only hit half of the possible targets with barrage, it's costing me zero energy. If I'm hitting with all six shots, that's +3 energy overall per barrage. Now that's staying power.

You sit through phantasm, poison, burning, et al, and yet you can't handle one pip of degen? Something's messed up there, because you should be paying attention to your health bar. I know I do, but that's force of habit from playing a monk for so long.